Jeremy D. Miller -- The Shade Tree Developer

I went back and listened, and you are right, 14:45

"

There is this impression that this group of people is that we completely don't get their style of working.

We don't get what they do with NHibernate, we are trying to build this other product.

The more we talk about it, at one point I stopped Jeffery Pallermo and I sat down and I talked for an hour straight, here, let me a vision for a few releases out, this is what it could be like.

And I sort of like describe it, and he is "Yeah, perfect, you got it"

> why the hell would it matter even if we did?

Because I respect your opinion,

From a perspective about as outside as you can get (I don't pretend to be at your level of expertise, or even in the same ballpark...give me a couple of years)...

'why the hell would it matter even if we did?'

Well, for better or worse, arguing over who 'started' it being unproductive and not really relevant, there is a perception that 'you guys' (for lack of a better phrase) have set yourselves up as arbiters of whether EF is up to snuff.

Yourself, Scott, etc. are incredibly proficient in blogging about EF and other things, and I think that is *great*, but it is hard to keep up with, and it is hard to keep up with what exactly you are critiquing.  Is it EF itself?  LINQ itself?  In another thread, Scott indicated that much? some? of his complaints are tooling issues.

On top of that, there are the inside jokes about '300' and fighting against the hoardes, and the one gentleman (apologies for blanking on the name) who coined the 'ALT.NET' phrase, where he quotes Emerson (he quotes Emerson for god's sake) and sets up this dichotomy of 'us who get it' against 'those who don't' (who probably smoke 'crack pipes' to use Scott's clever phrase), and....I don't care about a holy war.

As someone who has recently embraced MVP and who loves Wilson's ORMapper and got burned with ObjectSpaces...I just want to know what I should look at as the best tools to produce the code I want to produce.  

Is EF crap only if you embrace some pure TDD/DDD/DoodleDoodleDee methodology that I am probably not sophisticated enought to embrace yet?  Is it really mainly a tooling issue?

Do I have to choose sides between Miller/Bellware/Ayende vs. Daniel/Guthrie/etc.?

Can't you guys who are leaders of the industry all just get along?

I hear ya and totally feel the same way, based on what James Kovacs, JP, and others have said and what I've seen from the team. I wish I had been there as I really don't like some of the things that EF proposes to do.

I like my domain model rich and the last thing I worry about is how I'm going to get it to and from the database. The last thing. Even after the UI. I'm 5 sprints into a business calculator tool (that calculates heat loss on a pipe, very cool domain problems) and I have pushed back on the db as much as possible. The business tells me I need it, I keep saying we need to get the domain right then worry about the mapping.

NHibernate is going to the grunt work for me, injected into a repository as an IDataProvider (with a concrete NHibernateDataProvider). My mocks are happy and humming along and my FIT tests are screaming without worrying about a database. EF with it's data-heavy view of the world just messes up my way of thinking when I write quality code. The entity tracking is just plain ugly. I spent the better part of my last sprint sprinkling audit log messages throughout my domain because I can't figure out how to track the calculation another way (but I'm looking towards an AOP solution that might make this cleaner). I've also got binding lists built in my views using decorators to pull the values in from my domain via my presenter. That's where I have INotifyPropertyChanged and IErrorSomethingOrOther implemented, not in my domain. For me I try to keep my domain stateless, even if I have a Smart Client because it just feels better to manage.

So all the stuff they plan on building just doesn't sit well with me and I feel like I'm going to pollute my domain with a framework that is equivalent to MFC for Domains. No thanks. I'll stick with NHib, DDD, and TDD for now.